Veere Schotse Kerk rekenning nummer 3

Reeckeninnighe voor Robber Grijson

voor eerst den 9 gulden voor de klocke te leuyyen
ende voor gereeschap voor de kercke
ende 15 stuyvers voor een scheepe
12 stuyvers voor de elements oft de kirck
12 stuyvers 6 duyten voor een kapiteyn die vijf 6 dagen
gelegen heeft / een rock voor Janneken Smokelaers
voor maken en voor noors corsagien same £ 0-13-10

@René, I read in  line 4 den kirck, in line 5  5 of 6 dage, and Janneke's name is indeed Sinckelaers. In the last line I would prefre carsagie. (Scottish corsaye or cursay according to the DSL).

Hi Otto, I agree with your corrections; because of the small size of the image (also when enlarged) I missed or misread some words. One exception however to your corrections: den kirck should be dey kirck in my opinion.

Yes, I had first made it into deij too, but I hesitated about it! I downloaded the image and enlarged it to see all tiny details...

Many thanks, René and Otto.

I have a couple of queries. The first is how to differentiate between ij and y.

Does the letter y sometimes have two dots above it or should this usage always be transcribed as ij?

If we accept the surname in line 1 as Grijson, not Gryson, then should leuyyen in line 2 be leuijijen?

The issue is an important one, as a transcription is being prepared for publication of the surviving Veere Scots Kirk accounts for the first half of the 17th century. They are mostly written in Scots but the loose items have more Dutch. We (the transcribers) are finding examples of y (without dots) and ij (with dots). So we have adopted ij in any instance where there are dots and y where there are none. But that is perhaps too strict and not nuanced enough.

 

 

Dear Robert,

This indeed is an issue to think about when publishing. There are two ways that are both generally accepted:

Version A - Transcription of the ij and y in the way the are used in current-day language. In this version, these characters will be transcribed

= as ij if this would still be the common use today : so vijf will be transcribed as vijf

= as y if the word is not spelled with an ij in current-day language: so leuijijen will be transcribed as leuyyen

Version B - a more strict approach, mostly used in formal or scientific / academic transcriptions. In this version, transcription will be as-is; the transcription is the same as mentioned in the source

Regardless which option is used, consistency is key :)

Yes, I agree. We've tried to be consistent and gone with strict version B so far, as the intention is to translate into modern English and maybe Dutch, so modernising spelling would be dealt with that way.

In line 4: '15 stuyvers voor een scheepe'. We initially thought 'schoope', but 15 stuyvers would be a lot of money for a shovel! What do you think 'een scheepe' would have been?

Dear Robert

I think scheepe refers to money paid for the presence of a schepen (an alderman).

Looking at the source text once more, I discovered an additional correction needed in line 3: gereeschap should be gereeschyp.

This also makes more sense: gereeschyp refers to 'making the church ready' for the celebrations concerned, whereas gereeschap would be translated as 'tools', which makes far less sense in this context.

Many thanks, René. And my apologies for the delay in responding. 'gereeschyp/gereeschijp' makes perfect sense, as most of the account concerns preparations for the communion service, which was the major church event in the reformed church in Scotland. In which case, are we happy with the following? Reeckeninnighe voor Robber Grijson voor eerst den 9 gulden voor de klocke te leuijijen ende voor gereeschijp voor de kercke ende 15 stuijvers voor een scheepe 12 s[tuijver]s voor de elements oft deij kirck 12 s[tuijver]s 6 d[uijte]n voor een kapiteijn die vijf 6 dagen gelegen heeft / een rock voor Janneken Sinkelaers voor maken en voor noors carsaegie same £ 0-13-10 I have two suggestions. In line 6, could it end '5 of 6 dagen', rather than viif 6 dagen'? In line 8, I could be persuaded by 'carsaegie' but the ending of the word is more like the way the writer ends '-en' rather than '-e'. Either way, 'noors carsaegie/carsaegen' is presumably Norwegian cloth (the rough, heavy cloth imported by the Scots to the Zeeland in their triangular trade between Scotland, Norway and the Netherlands)?

Robert, I read with in line 6 "5 of 6 dagen", the final abbreviated n occurs also in the first line, leuuyen, and in another difficult word in the last line, which I now would read as carsaeijen. In my view it means indeed rough cloth (ruwe saei). The g is different, compare its form in words such as reeckeninghe, gereeschip and gulden, bending more to the left. The y has a downward stroke in a slightly different writing angle.

Excellent, Otto. I'm very happy with the final result, thanks to you and René.