I am from Canada. I have attached the text from an old document relating to an incident that occurred in 1403. I am having great difficulty in translating it. Is there anyone who may be able to help me by giving me a translation and perhaps the meaning. I am new to this forum and I have tried to attach the documents properly. You should find two separate pages. If the second page does not appear please be so kind as to let me know and I will send the second page separately.
Thank you
John van Immerseel
Thank you for replying Dirk. I will try again. I am not sure what I am doing wrong. I converted my word docx to a PNG but obviously something is not right. At my end, the document looks fine in my stored files. If you have any advice I would be happy to hear from you. In the meantime, I will retry.
Kindest Regards
John
Hi John,
On the Twitteraccount @watstaatdaer I can see a part of the text. https://twitter.com/watstaatdaer/status/1042139712658452480
But if I click on the text, the page turns black.
It is a typt text, not a scan of an original old hand written text. Maybe you can type the text in a forum-post?
Regards, Anneke
Dear Anneke,
Thank you for responding to my post. Something has gone wrong with the text that I posted. Toninght, I will try posting iit again using a different method. Hopefully that will be successful. In the meantime you have my sincerest thanks.
Kindest Regards
John
Dear Anneke
Attached please find another attempt at sending you the document that I had previously posted. I have done my best to transcribe the document but as you can see the words used are af a very old form. I have used modern equivalents where I was certain of the words but others I could not make out. Thank you once again for your interest.
Kindest regards
John
Jan Sanders vs, Jan van der Elst on the Matter of Unpaid Taxes Owing to Jan Sanders
Jan Znders cijns af schuldich is, daarom die voirs. Jan Zanders meijndt, dat hij gronthere zijn soude van den selven bemde ende dat hij dien, om gebrecs wille zijnen cijns of om andere rechten willen, die hij hem vermit daaar aan te hebben mitten recht verreict heeft mit zijnen meijer ende schepenen, divelc die voirs. heer Jan van der Elst meijndt, dat van gheenre werden noch valeuren is, seggende dat die heer van Arkel gronthere van den voirs. bemt is, ende dat die hoofte te Artselaer, daar die selven Jan Zanders hem, als hij meijndt, schuldich hadden geweest aen te spreken, of hij hem totten voirs. bemde enichs redits vermate te hebben, so ees’t dat wij daar op met desen brieve seggen ende verclaren, mitrade ende goitdunken der vieren van onse raitsluden, die wij daar toe ghedeputeert hebben ende genomen dat die voirs. Jan Zanders nemen ende ontfaen sal alsulken cijns, als de voirs. Jan Zanders nemen end ontfaen sal alsulken cijns, als die voirs. heer Jan van den voirs. bemde schuldich is van achterstelle ende oie? Schuldich sal worden te terminen comende, den welken cijns die voirs. heer Jan hem oie sal betalen, also hij schuldich is te doen. ende ees’t dat Jan Zanders hem vermit enich recht vorder of ineer te hebben aen den voirs. bemt, daer om sal hij ende niach (mach?) den voirs. heer Jan met recht aen spreken in der banck, daar die voirs. bemt gelegen is ende hooft, ende seen daar gheven ende nemen wes lien ‘t recht wisen sal, sonder enige wille, torche of ongelijc daar om aan malcanderen te kecren in eniger manieren. ende dat onse jegenweerlige (weerlege?) seggen ende verclaren bevelen wij den voirs. partien vast ende onverbreckelijk te houden ende te voldoen sonder argelist op alsulken geloeften als sij ons daar af mit hoeren compromitterieven gedaen hebben.
Ende des t’orconde hebben wij ons segel aen desen brief doen henghen.
Gegeven te Brussel, xxvii dag in januario in’t jaer ons heren M.CCCC ende twee, na costume’s hifs van Cameric.
(Copie du temps, sur papier. Chartes des ducs de Brabant; Archives generales du royaumme â Bruxelles)
Hi John,
The last attachment is good, I can read it. Thanks for the posting and for the text on the forum of 'Wat staat daer?'!
Regards, Anneke
Hi Anneke
Thank you for your reply. I am glad that you have a document that you can work with. I look forward to your assistance with it.
Kindest Regards
John
Beste forumbezoekers,
Wie kan deze tekst vertalen en duiden?
Mijn Engels is onvoldoende om deze tekst te kunnen vertalen
Voor een goed begrip van de tekst moeten er volgens mij eerst enkele mogelijke transcriptiefouten opgelost worden. Is er ook een scan van de originele tekst beschikbaar ?
Hieronder in geel enkele aanpassingen en nog op te lossen woorden
Jan Znders( Zanders) cijns af schuldich is, daarom die voirs. Jan Zanders meijndt, dat hij gronthere zijn soude van den selven bemde ende dat hij dien, om gebrecs wille zijnen cijns of om andere rechten willen, die hij hem vermit (vermits) daaar (daar) aan te hebben mitten recht verreict heeft mit zijnen meijer ende schepenen, divelc (dewelc)die voirs. heer Jan van der Elst meijndt, dat van gheenre werden noch valeuren is, seggende dat die heer van Arkel gronthere van den voirs. bemt is, ende dat die hoofte te Artselaer, daar die selven Jan Zanders hem, als hij meijndt, schuldich hadden geweest aen te spreken, of hij hem totten voirs. bemde enichs redits(?) vermate ? te hebben, so ees’t dat wij daar op met desen brieve seggen ende verclaren, mitrade ( mit rade) ende goitdunken der vieren van onse raitsluden, die wij daar toe ghedeputeert hebben ende genomen dat die voirs. Jan Zanders nemen ende ontfaen (ontslaen ?) alsulken cijns, als de voirs. Jan Zanders nemen end ontfaen (ontslaen?)sal alsulken cijns, als die voirs. heer Jan van den voirs. bemde schuldich is van achterstelle ende oie? ( oic = ook) schuldich sal worden te terminen comende, den welken cijns die voirs. heer Jan hem oie (oic) sal betalen, also hij schuldich is te doen. ende ees’t dat Jan Zanders hem vermit (vermits) enich recht vorder of ineer (meer) te hebben aen den voirs. bemt, daer om sal hij ende niach (mach) den voirs. heer Jan met recht aen spreken in der banck, daar die voirs. bemt gelegen is ende hooft, ende seen daar gheven ende nemen wes lien ‘t recht wisen sal, sonder enige wille, torche of ongelijc daar om aan malcanderen te kecren ( keeren of keuren?)in eniger manieren. ende dat onse jegenweerlige (weerlege?) seggen ende verclaren bevelen wij den voirs. partien ( partijen) vast ende onverbreckelijk te houden ende te voldoen sonder argelist op alsulken geloeften als sij ons daar af mit hoeren compromitterieven gedaen hebben.
Ende des t’orconde (oirconde) hebben wij ons segel aen desen brief doen henghen.
Ik waag het er op.....
John, I am not a native English speaker and no historian eather. You have to regard the following resume as an indication of the exact meaning of the text. The text you submitted already has some deficiencies.
… of which Jan Zanders (JZ) owes taxes. Therefore JZ claims the ownership of this bemd (grassland), which he acquired from schout and schepenen (city council).
Jan van der Elst (JE) contests this ownership because the “lord of Arkel” is the legal owner of this bemd. JZ should haved approached the “lord of Arkel” who resides in Artselaer.
We (undersigned) decide with this letter that JZ is allowed to collect the overdue taxes who JE has to pay to JZ.
If JZ means to have more rights, he has to turn tot he “bank” (vierschaar, court of justice) of the region where the bemd is situated.
Given in Brussels 17 january 1402 stylus Hof of Kamerik
Beste Herman
Thank you for your help with this document. My only comment would be that since Jan Zanders owns the meadow and that Jan van der Elst owes taxes to Jan Zanders the first sentence in your reply should be that Jan Zanders is 'owed taxes". Would this be your understanding as well?
Kindest Regards
John
Dear John, Herman and Archimboldo,
In an e-mail John replied to Herman that he has no original text. The transcription was completed in the 19th century.
John, did you see the English explanation Archimboldo wrote?
Dear Anneke
in reply to your question, I did receive with thanks, the reply that Herman wrote. I am very appreciative of his assistance. As well I appreciated his efforts in highlighting and correcting those words which were transcribed incorrectly in the document that I was working from. This is a great forum and it has been of great assistance to me.
Kindest Regards to everyone.
John
Good to know that the forum and the help of Dirk, Herman and Archimboldo is of great assistance to you, John!
Best regards!
Beste Anneke, Herman and Archimboldo,
Once again my thanks to each of you for your help in translating this document. I am very appreciative.
I maintain a personal dictionary of words in old documents that I have not come across before. Would it be asking too much if I could get an explanation from you for the following words that were used in this document.
schuldig
enichs redits vermate
mit rade
Thank you.
John van Immerseel
the easy words:
schuldig or schuldich or verschuldicht/verschuldigt meens :
( money) guilty
mit rade means : with advice.
I have no idee what "enichs redits vermate "means . That is why I a question mark placed.
Also I don't understand "ontfaen"
possibly this is also a reading error.
I think there might be:öntfa(ng)en , what means :receiving
That would make the sentence logical
Wondering what other co-readers think about it
( in Dutch:benieuwd wat andere meelezers daar van vinden)
I hope you understand my English (thanks to google translate)
Dear all, the original transcription is not what is shoud be. I guess "of hij hem totten voirs. bemde enich redits vermate te hebben" originates from "of hij hem totten voirs. bemde enich rechts vermocht te hebben" which means "whether he can claim any rights regarding the bemd".
"Ontfaen" is a contamination of "ontfangen", see WNT.
Dear Archimbo
Thank you for the clarification for this part of the text. It is very helpful to have this clarification. In my original request to herman, I asked if he could clarify the meaning of a small number of words in the document. One word that I missed was 'meindt'. Could you or Herman provide a definition for this word. Thank you.
John
Jan Zanders meijndt = Jan Zanders thinks
Many thanks.
John van Immerseel
zei op dinsdag 18 september 2018 - 21:16