1536-1618? Orphanage- Delft

Hi Anne, due to the fragmentation and damage some text is missing indeed. From the text I can deduct this is not the first and not the final page of the document; are there preceding or further pages online?

What I can find in the current text is that it concerns a document where a male person promises to keep a certain amount under his guard (probably the childrens' part of an inheritance). The male person is son of Elisabeth Vredrixdochter, the widow of Dirck Janssz van Ruven, living in Delft, and son-in-law of Cornelia Francendochter, widow of Adriaen Dircxssz de Vryes, living in Haarlem. Both women are mentioned in the bottom part of this document as guarantors; it is explicitly stated that the renounce the ancient right that women should not be held responsible as guarantors.

The amount is hard to read, as some words are missing, it should however be a round figure, as the word 'duysent' is recognizable; it should be either one thousand guilders or a multiple of that amount.

The document can be dated, as there is a provision about annual payments, which are due every 4th of May, starting on the 4th of May 1605; the document hence dates from between the 5th of May 1604 and the 3rd of May 1605.

Dear Anne Nescio,

I made a transcription of this document for you, following in my next post. Unfortunately it is a fragment and not every line of this page is complete. It is a fragment of a register of the Weeskamer in Delft so you said and the date of this fragment could be the 4 th of may 1604, written at the begin of this image on the right by I think an archivist nowadays. In the original fragment I saw that the first termin of payment of an amount of around 1000 gulden ( a very high amout of money those days ) would be the 4 th of may 1605, so I think also that the date of this fragment is the 4 th of may 1604. I destillated out of this fragement that: There is an amout of around 1000 gulden that would be payed in termins every year till the whole amound is payed. The actor in this fragment has a house and brewery called: " De Claeu" which is situated in Delft at the "Corenmarct" besides the old hospital. The mother of the actor is called: Elisabeth Vredrix, widow of Dirck Janssen van Ruven, inhabitant of Delft, and the mother in law of the actor is called: Cornelia Francen, widow of Adriaen Dircxssen de Vrijes, inhabitant of Haarlem. There is also a benificium called: "Sancti Vellerani/Velleiani". Sounds that familiar to you? This fragment also that er is some document about this payment before? ("Dit volcht folio seqenti voorschreven.") and the whole payment of this fragment is done and written down in the 3 th register of the Weeskamer of Delft on page 243. (" Nota. Van dese constitutie Is quijtscheldinge gedaen als In't 3e register fol. 243.").

I hope you can work further on with my informations.

Have a nice and sunny day.

Dennis

And this is the whole transcription of the fragment first part:

"Nota. Van dese constitutie Is quijtscheldinge gedaen als In't 3e register fol. 243.

....(k)inderen, de somme van Duijs(ent)..... 't stuck, die zij op huijden hare voorschreeven kin(deren)..... heeft, mits dat zij daer aen de vruchten beg....... hier vooren geregistreert staet, welcke.... Duijsent guldens hhij comparant onderhouden sall op....... te lossen den penningh 16 als tot 62 gulden 10 stuijvers si.....? vrij gelts van allen lasten ende Impositien nijet tegenst(aende) enige placcaten ofte ordonnantien ter contrarie, ende zulle(n) verschijnen den 4 e meij Daer vanden 4 den meij anno ..... 16 hondert vijff 't 1e Jaer wesen sal, ende zoo voorts Jaerlix geduerende totte volle aflossinge toe, Dat hij belooft te doen op weesch(ca?)mers recht als een half Jaer te vooren gewaerschout sijnde, onder 't verbant specialicken van sijn huijs, erve ende brouwerije genaemt: "De Claeu", metten aencleven vandien, staende aenden oostsijde vanden Corenmarct alhier, nast 't oude gasthuijs aeenden suijtsijde, ende voorts daer onder verbindende sijn persoon ende andere goeden subiect allen rechten ende rechteren, ende ter executie van den weescamer."

Transcription second part:

"Compareerden mede Elisabet(h) Vredrix dochter, weduwe wijlen Dirck Janssen van Ruven, mede wonende binnen deser stadt, ende Cornelia wij/wijlen? Francen dochter, weduwe van Adriaen Dircxssen de Vrijes, wonende tot Haerlem, sijn moeder ende schoonmoeder respective, beijde met haer voochts have ende reminiceerende 't beneficium "Sancti Vellerani/Velleiani", disponerende dat vrouwen haer voor nijemants als borge en mogen verbinden, ende stelden hen selven hijervooren als borgen ende mede principalen mede te buijten gaende."

"Dit volcht folio sequenti voorschreven."

I think typing this that with the beneficium is meant: It is not allowed by law for women to stand in with their money and goods for the actor in this document, (only men were allowed to do that those days) but there is made an exeption / permission for Elisabeth and Cornelia to stand in for the actor (their son and son in law) with their money and goods besides the law. 

@Dennis, a small correction to very good work: the legal formula in Latin reads renuncieerende 't beneficiium Senatusconsulti Velleiani. 

Great work Rene, Dennis & Otto. Many thanks indeed for the translation and transcriptions.

Firstly concerning the preceding and further page, it's just the page I've uploaded currently on Delft website. But I will write to them and ask if I can see the extras. They are incredibly helpful, so hopefully in a day or two I should be able to upload them. 

I know exactly who the son of Elisabeth Fredericksz & son in law of Cornelia Francen is. Frederick Uitenhage van Ruiven whose marriage contract of 1595 I uploaded yesterday. He was married to Cornelia's daughter, also called Cornelia. I've just discovered portraits of all these people, dating from 1580 -1603, so I can put faces to these names! 

It's great to have it confirmed that Cornelia Francen still lived in Haarlem. That makes sense why her daughter and Frederick had their pre-marriage contract in Haarlem.

I find it fascinating Dennis that these 2 women from the beginning of the 17th century were able to have an exception made for them to act as guarantors for this payment despite what the law says.

with very best wishes to you all, from a very hot and sunny UK :-)

Anne

p.s. Apologies Rene. On rereading all the replies before I filed them I noticed you also mentioned about the women renouncing their ancient rights not to be held as guarantors. Quite fascinating.I assume they were both wealthy in their own rights so were confident they could fulfil their obligations as guarantors.

Thanks again.

Anne

Dear Anne, 

Always a pleasure. How very special it is that you've found portraits of these people acting in this document. I am a bit curious about your research. If I am not too curious: is it for a publication or so? Elisabeth and Cornelia had many influence in society and money I think, so they could act as guarantors as females. Their late husbands must have been quite powerfull. 

Just an extra note: It could be that these widows are acting in documents with their everyday common names: official: Elisabeth, everyday life: Lijsken, official: Cornelia, everyday life: Nelleken. Not that this is always written down in documents, but sometimes and in some regions of The Netherlands you can face that those days. Know then that they are the same person. 

Whem I see a question on this forum, I first make a transcription of the whole document. After that I type and upload the transcription on this forum. In the meantime Rene posted his post that I first saw after uploading my posts. So it can be on this forum that some post have the same content by that. I know fore sure theat Rene and you understand. 

Happy researching Anne. 

I read your earlier upload of the pre marriage contract of 1595 quickly. These people are indeed upper class members of Dutch society those days. 

Hi Dennis and Anne, I fully understand :)

Hello Dennis

In answer to your question, I'm researching 17th century women in Delft who ran pottery factories.There were quite a few of them :-)

The latest postings are about the Schoonhoven sister's who ran 'De Clauw' factory for nearly 45 years. They were descendants of these illustrious Catholic families we've been looking at in the recent documents I've posted on the Forum.

I'm working on the project with a Dutch friend of mine, Carla. Initially we thought we'd write an article about these women but we now have so much material- and it's still growing, that we may publish it- if anyone is interested!

Your help and that of all the other contributors to my posts have been invaluable in uncovering these women's stories. Rene has been provided much assistance for the past year and knows the aim of my research.

If Carla and I ever get published we will of course, (with everyone's permission) acknowledge the contributions all the respondents to our project have given us.

very best wishes

Anne

p.s. no reply from Delft archives to my latest query yet. I'll send a reminder tomorrow.

Fascinating Anne. Interesting research. Thanks for your response. I was just curious. Some women during the Dutch Republic were quite well doing their business those days. 

It is great to acknowledge the contributions of all the respondents to your project, my permission you have, but anyway it is nice to contribute to your project and a pleasure to help others. 

Rene (a very good transcriptor), I, and all others on here will assist if possible. Unfortunately I have not always the time to make transcriptions (I have to do my own research for myself also lol), but am very happy with your clear and well to read upload from Delft archives. (Not meant wrong, but sometimes posts on here are quite dark, unclear, etc. It gives me less pleasure to transcript and a headache sometime also in some cases, haha).

Maybe it is also good to ask Delft archives (maybe already done) if they have a "Register no. 3 / Third Register" of the Weeskamer also. On page 243 of that register you can find then the "kwijtschelding" mentionned in this fragment. 

Good day Anne.

Morning Dennis

Thanks for your nice message.

Now I have a question for you. What is your research about ( if you don't mind me asking?). I've always wondered how all the contributors to the Forum became such experts in reading old documents. It must be a great skill to have, and even better that so many of you are kind enough to share your expertise with others :-) My own research would be lost without all this help.

I've messaged Delft archives, and very unusually they haven't replied to my query. I'll chase them up on Tuesday when they reopen.

Have a good weekend.

Anne

Dear Anne,

I think duo to the holiday season they haven't replied to your query. Afterwards they will send you the information you've asked for I think / hope.

In reply to your questions: My expertise in reading old documents is, long story not that short: ;-)

As a child I was already fascinated and interested in history. It all started with researching my own family tree and the history of old canal houses in Amsterdam. (My grandparents lived in an old Amsterdam canal house at the Herengracht, my father was also born over there). I found out that I am a descendent of ancient quite significant families in the nowadays Dutch Noord-Brabant region, I could trace back into the Middle Ages. 

I learned reading old documents at first to practice by myself a lot, and afterwards in many courses and seminars by teachers of the Amsterdam municipal archives, and later on through many lessons taught by National Archivist Dr. Jan Sanders in 's-Hertogenbosch. Impressed by the expertise of Dr. Lucas van Dijck, I met regularly at the 's-Hertogenbosch city archives, concerning transcripting Medieval Latin documents, I felt encouraged to practice myself even more transcripting that kind of documents of the schepenbank of 's-Hertogenbosch, known as: Bosch' Protocol, before the beginning of the 17th century generally written down in Latin, the "English" of the Middle Ages and the language of the Roman Catholic church and universities. 

Nowadays I'm researching, besides many other interests, the history of photographers in The Netherlands during the 19th and early 20th century, and the Medieval history of some villages in the nowadays Dutch province of Noord-Brabant and their later history during the Eighty Years' War, roughly: 1400-1620. I try to reconstruct the society of those villages whose primary sources have been lost, trough secondary sources like the Bosch' Protocol and sources in other regions of the former Duchy of Brabant. It is satisfying to give those people back their names and voices, which had been lost over the centuries. 

Anyway, it is also satisfying to help other visitors on this Forum and interact with other researchers. I hope you liked this not very common reply, but it was a pleasure to me to give some information about your question: wondering how all the contributors to the Forum became such experts in reading old documents.

Have a great evening Anna. 

Dear Dennis

What a fascinating story. Thank you so much for sharing.

Parts made me smile, specially starting off with your family history and them moving on to other subjects. Like you many years ago I discovered that very distant relatives in Herefordshire in UK had a Manor House and had been 'escheators'- i.e the Kings agents in early modern Britain (about 1450's) although their recorded line goes back to around 1200.

My great grandfather x15- Sir William de Clynton had collected the local taxes owed to the King around 1490, and the record survived in the National Archives in London. I duly went there and ordered the document. What appeared was a rolled up length of parchment tied with ribbon. On opening and unwinding it I found the page where he had , in effect, signed off the accounts to send to the King. There was his signature. And here was I, his very distant descendant touching the same parchment he had held more than 500 years ago. That was quite a moment!

Because the family owned property and had numerous legal disputes many more documents were held in various archives, all of course were written in old English. So I  became self taught with the help of National Archives online tutorials to decipher the text. It was painstakingly slow but I evenutally succeeded. 

However unlike you I did not become an expert. I admire your perseverance and am happy that this skill is not only useful for your own personal research, but that you are so generous to share your skill and knowledge with others.

Fingers crossed Delft archives reply soon, then hopefully the story of my Schoonhoven sisters family can hopefully be continued :-)

Until then, very best wishes.

Anne

Dear Anne,

Also thanks to you sharing your own very interesting story. I recognize the feeling touching the same parchment your ancestor had held such a long time ago. Your reply was very nice to read. 

It is great that visitors on here can make new stories again. 

I hope I and other transcriptors on here can help you to continue the interesting Schoonhoven sisters family story. It's a plaesure to me to contribute.

Best wishes,

Dennis