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Orphan chamber 1619

This concerns Francois Jaspersz (Mesch)-goldsmith and Maria Jansen de With.

Is it possible to tell if it was Francois or Maria who had died?

Trying to unravel if this 'Francois' is the same person as 'Frans Jaspersz Mesch in my recent posts....

All at bit of a mystery, so any help gratefully received.

best wishes

Anne

 

Reacties (8)

Geert Ouweneel zei op zo, 01/19/2025 - 18:12

Franchois Jasparsz,
goudtsmidt
Op huyden den eersten Marty anno 1600
negentien, compareerde voor weesmeesteren Franchois
Jasparsz, goudtsmidt, ende heeft
volgende den testament bij hem comparant
ende Helena Jorisdochter, zijn zaliger huysvrouwe, voor den
notaris Jan de Rooy opten 29en
October anno 1600 veertyen gepasseert
ende bij haer metter doot bevesticht, zijn
twee kinderen, bij namen Neeltgen, out
12 jaren ende Lijsbet, out 9 jaren, bij zijn
voorsz. zaliger huysvrouwe geprocreert, voor haer
zaliger moederlicke erve bewesen ende
bij desen geregistreert de somme van
achthondert carolus guldens met hen beyden,
als elck kint vyer hondert carolus guldens,
te betalen wanneer zij ten mondigen
dagen ofte huwelicken state gecomen
zullen zijn, beloofde voorts
d'selve kinderen te onderhouden in
cost ende cleedren, te doen leren lesen
ende schrijven ende een hantwerck

Otto Vervaart zei op ma, 01/20/2025 - 10:03

Dear Anne, in this act François confirms in 1619 the will of 1600 he had signed with his late wife Helena with provisions for the upbringing and the heritage of his two children. When ocming of age or when marrying they will each receive 100 Carolus guilders. He promise to provide for the living and clothes of the two girls, for learning to read and write, and to learn a trade.

Anne Lewis zei op ma, 01/20/2025 - 11:31

Dear Geert and Otto

Many thanks for both of the replies, much appreciated.

I'm a bit puzzled as on Delft archives, where I found this document, the list of people involved were

Francois Jaspersz (Knife) - bad translation I assume (I read the archives in the English mode).

Maria Jansen de With,

Jan & Elisabeth- but I can see from the translation and account in Dutch that the children were called :Neeltgen;12yrs and Elisabeth:9 yrs.

Yet only Francois's previous wife Helena Jorisdochter is named.

Francois and Maria were married in 1619- hence the need for this document perhaps?

best wishes

Anne

Otto Vervaart zei op ma, 01/20/2025 - 12:26

I checked for Franchois and Helena at the website of the Stadsarchief Delft. The documents in finding aid 72, Weeskamer, inv.nr. 1013-1019 led the archivists to the conclusion your document concerns them, too, and thus they added the name Mesch to the description, ebven though it is not literally found in the text.

Anne Lewis zei op ma, 01/20/2025 - 12:50

Many thanks for double checking Otto. That's very kind of you.

It's also puzzling that the archivist (in translation) added the name Maria Jansen de With, even though she's not mentioned either.

Not to worry. I'm not sure I'll ever be able to work out if 'Francois' and 'Frans'- although sometimes mentioned in the Delft archives as Hans- even though he signs his name in documents with Frans, are 1) same person or 2) brothers? Both have their father's name Jasper(sz) as well, so I feel they're definitely related.

Jasper Mes is recorded in the Goldsmith's Guild book of Delft in 1586, as are his (possibly) 2 sons.....

Hans Jaspersz Mes -1618

Frans Jaspersz Mes-1619

But also in 1589 there is a Jan Mes- Jaspers brother perhaps? And just to add to the 'family' 

Simon Mes-1597.

Frans Jaspersz Mesch was recorded as an art collector owning 7 paintings by Momper,in Delft Orphan chambers of 1628,  according to John Micael Montias who wrote 'Artists and Artisans in Delft' 1982.

kind wishes

Anne

 

Otto Vervaart zei op ma, 01/20/2025 - 16:39

Perhaps Franchois point to a descent from a Flemish family, but the name is equivalent to Frans. I do not exactly when he died, but in the pieces in Weeskamer inv. 1013-1619 deal with the period 1627-1645. The archivists rightly mentions both spouses. The orphan chamber was in charge of seeing children got the right care and the legitimate portions from their inheritance. A second marriage with possibly children on both sides could complicate matters

Josje Schnitzeler recently defended her Ph.D. thesis on Financial care for the vulnerable : Rise and decline of Holland orphan chambers (Utrecht University; online, https://dspace.library.uu.nl/bitstream/handle/1874/420533/PS_Josje_Schn… ).

Anne Lewis zei op ma, 01/20/2025 - 18:05

Dear Otto

I think you're right about a Flemish family.

An article (to accompany the sale of a Dutch mounted Nautilus Cup,(made in Delft) in 2023 by  Christies, London auctioneers)- written by Dr Pieter Biesboer stated that following the Dutch Revolt (1568-1648) many Antwerp goldsmiths took refuge in Delft. These goldsmiths acquired a reputation for high quality objects. One of the important families of goldsmiths was Mes.

Thank you for the link to the Ph.d. thesis. I shall enjoy reading that later and learning more about the Orphan Chambers work.

Finally a Frans Jaspersz Mesch died in 1630 in Delft. He was recorded as a silversmith. He was married to Elisabeth Roscam- and it's the Mesch descendants from this line that connect to the pottery factories I'm interested in.

There is no record of another Frans or Hans Jaspersz Mesch who died in 1628 in Delft. 

I'm very grateful for all the support you've given me in this chain of correspondence.

warmest wishes

Anne

Anne Lewis zei op wo, 01/22/2025 - 21:30

Dear Otto

A brief update. 

I've found a Frans Jaspersz Mes, died 13 June 1627, Delft buried in the Old Church and lived at Voldersgracht, which is were one of the house sales I posted earlier was located. That date fits in with the inventory of 1628 which recorded the seven Momper paintings he owned.

Hans (Frans) Jaspersz Mes(ch) died in 1630, he lived at Marktveld, where his widow, Elisabeth Roscam remarried from. He was noted as a silversmith.

So my conclusion now is that these 2 men were brothers. However I can't explain why Hans was often referred to as Frans when he had a living brother of the same name. That remains a mystery!

best wishes

Anne

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